DIM and Enclomiphene
- Thread starter Bubbler
- Start date
Hi mate…
Enclo itself will not cause neither such a high estrogen nor gyno (don’t worry, it does not appears overnight!)
Is this your 1st time consumption on any compound?
It would help if you give more details about your age? Time training? Bulk, cut? Age?,height? %bf?
any available bloodwork? On which condition?
Welcome to our community!!
Shark
- Thread Author
- #3
Yes, this is my first time taking anything that effectively influences my testosterone.
Currently I'm in a cut and my stack for that is 50mcg T4, 1.5mg Reta per week, 2mg Salbutamol, and 500mg L-Carnitine inject. I'm 187cm tall, 23 years old, weigh 87.3kg with about 14% body fat.
Bloodwork (18.11.2025):
Total Testosterone: 646 ng/dL
Free Testosterone: 106 pg/mL (1.64%)
Bioavailable Testosterone: 2.735 µg/L (42.34%)
Albumin: 4.8 g/dL
SHBG: 48 nmol/L
Bloodwork (22.12.2025):
fT3: 5.47 pmol/L
fT4: 20.08 pmol/L
TSH: 0.91 µU/mL
As you can see, my free testosterone isn't great. According to studies, I'm not in a good range (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36251328/). And that's how I feel too. But it used to be completely different. It's a long story, but the short version is that I was in overtraining and kept pushing it longer and harder. That led to such a massive crash that I ended up in a mildly depressive phase. Had to stop training for 2 months. Unfortunately, nothing feels even remotely like it used to. The drive is gone, music doesn't pump me up anymore, I can't do heavy compound lifts like before. Everything feels damped down. I want to test with Enclo how I feel with higher levels. Because I'm strongly assuming my levels were much better back then. And if I do feel better with it, I'm considering TRT. I also must say that i tried so much to recover myself, but nothing lets me feel like before.
I'm really curious about your thoughts on this. If you really want to know, I can get more detailed. But this roughly describes the situation pretty well.
Alright, let’s talk about this in a more grounded, real way.
First thing, and this is important: your bloodwork does not look like a broken hormonal system. Total testosterone is fine, SHBG is a bit high, free test is on the lower side, yes, but nothing here screams “you’re hypogonadal and need TRT right now”. Plenty of guys walk around with similar numbers and feel normal.
What does make a lot of sense is the context around those numbers.
You’re 23, in a cut, running T4, Reta, salbutamol, injectable carnitine, and you’re coming off a legit overtraining crash. That combination alone can flatten someone hard, mentally and physically, even if testosterone was perfect.
The symptoms you describe aren’t unusual at all in that situation:
no drive, no aggression, music doesn’t hit, heavy compounds feel dead, everything feels muted. That’s classic CNS burnout. Dopamine tanks, cortisol stays elevated, serotonin balance gets weird. Testosterone plays a role, but it’s not the whole story.
A few things stand out to me:
Your SHBG at 48 is probably hurting you more than your total testosterone. High SHBG means less usable androgen signal where it matters. Dieting, thyroid hormone, stress, endurance work, all push SHBG up.
You’re using T4, and your labs show high-normal fT4 with suppressed TSH. That increases metabolic demand. If recovery, calories, and sleep aren’t fully dialed in, thyroid can actually make fatigue and flatness worse over time, not better.
And the overtraining piece matters more than people want to admit. A real CNS crash doesn’t just resolve in a few weeks. Sometimes it takes months for motivation, aggression, and “spark” to come back.
About Enclomiphene: your thinking here isn’t stupid. Used carefully, it can be a diagnostic tool. Not a fix, but a test.
If you run low-dose Enclo for a short period and suddenly you feel:
-more drive
-more confidence
-more aggression in training
- better mood
- then yeah, androgens are part of the problem.
But if Enclo barely changes how you feel, that’s a big sign the issue isn’t testosterone. It’s recovery, stress load, nervous system fatigue.
What I would be careful with is jumping from “I feel flat” straight to “I need TRT”.
TRT at 23 isn’t a cheat code. It’s a long-term commitment. It doesn’t fix burnout, CNS exhaustion, or chronic stress. And if those are the root issues, TRT can actually make things messier.
Before even thinking about TRT seriously, I’d want to see:
- you out of a hard deficit
- thyroid use reassessed
- stimulants pulled back
- sleep quality improved, not just hours
- SHBG coming down naturally
and more than two months of proper recovery from overtraining
Two months sounds like a lot, but for a real crash, it often isn’t.
If after all that, Enclo clearly improves your quality of life and you crash again when stopping, then a TRT discussion starts to make more sense. Right now though, this looks much more like a system that was pushed too hard for too long and hasn’t fully reset yet.
You’re not wrong for questioning things. You’re not crazy for wanting to feel like your old self again. Just don’t rush the conclusion before the body has had a fair chance to recover.
If you want to go deeper, stuff like training volume before the crash, how long you’ve been in deficit, sleep quality, resting HR, HRV, and how you feel day to day outside the gym would help a lot.
Thanks for sharing mate!
Shark
- Thread Author
- #5
I completely understand your response. Let me give you more context.
I've been experiencing these symptoms for almost two years now, not just a few months. My best shape was end of 2023. After that, I went into a cut (January or February 2024), and during that time, I noticed my training became terrible. I started yawning halfway through due to high cortisol. As mentioned, I kept pushing until I realized I couldn't continue with my plan like that. Then I switched to Upper/Lower. Training got better, but the energy just isn't the same.
I continued trying my diet and bulk cycles, but they all failed and couldn't be properly completed because I didn't have the power for everything. No matter how much I did, I couldn't lose weight (probably low thyroid values due to the previous long-term stress). Finally, in September 2025, the big crash came. My HRV was at 42, I felt so bad that I had mild depressive traits. I was tired every day, everything was exhausting, and don't even get me started on the terrible training.
Around October, I made a training stop because I recognized the exact diagnosis for myself: a mix of overtraining syndrome and crashed central nervous system. During those two months, I recovered really well - tons of consecutive green recoveries, and my HRV slowly climbed up to 70 on average, around 65. At the end, I decided to do my first blood test on 18.11. My free testosterone was bad due to SHBG. I started adding 10 mg Bor and 500 mg Tongkat Ali (on top of basic supplements like D3, Magnesium, Ashwagandha, Zinc, Omega 3...). I haven't done another blood test yet.
Since then, nothing has really changed. Then I checked my thyroid hormones before starting T4. Everything was perfect. Now im taking it to prevent thyroid hormone crash again. The current status is simply that I'm at a loss and desperate. I'm very sure that I must have had much better testosterone levels before, which is why I just want to try Enclo and see how I feel. If Enclo doesn't get me back to where I was and how I felt, I'm completely clueless.
Training Details: Split before Upper/Lower was PPL with about 3-4 sets per muscle and relatively high weights after long sessions.
Deficit: I'm currently in a diet since 15.12. Before that, I had several failed diet cycles that went on too long, forcing me to quit (which wasn't the case before - I always nailed my form).
Health Data: Currently resting heart rate 56-58 due to Retatrutide, previously around 52-54. HRV currently averages 68, during the crash averaged 50 but with days under 40 where everything felt like shit and heavy. Something else interesting: I have persistently slightly elevated blood pressure, but unfortunately for years and genetic, since I've exhausted pretty much every lever to lower it. My blood pressure averages around 135/80 (sometimes 140/85, sometimes 130/75). I need to see a doctor for it.
How I feel: As said, the energy is good again, sometimes there are days when I'm not as fit - ups and downs as always. Training definitely better and after almost 2 years, I can finally progress more again. But it still doesn't come close to how I felt before. That energy I had was really exceptional, which showed extremely in my progress.
My current plan: I'd start 6.25 mg Enclo daily today, or 12.5 mg? I've also read an approach to take it 4 times a week and then pause to counteract the IGF-1 reduction. No idea if that works, but everyone seems to do it daily. I have DIM in the back pocket in case E2 gets too high (or should I have an AI as backup?). From every blood test I've seen on Enclo, E2 was significantly elevated after longer use. I'd do my first blood test in about 4 weeks. Then I will run Enclo for like 6 to 8 weeks, after that, I slowly reduce the dose and come off.
I'm curious what you say, and thanks again for your time - that's not a given.
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Hello 
From my point of view, without a negative judgment, I mostly see a young man who has a functional body but who may not have come out of his midly depression yet. Or who lacks joy in his life maybe (and who training no longer brings as it used to).
For me, there is nothing hormonal in all this. It's "in your head". I know it's sucks... But it's something that we notice a lot these days, you're not the only one.
And you're looking for an external solution. It's normal and it's good to try to be happy. But the use of drugs will only be a placebo band-aid that will not last over time.
It will surely work more in a motivation because "you take something" than on the body which already feels good.
That's not the subject of your post I know that.
But to answer it anyway, always start low when it comes to drugs. Do a blood test before titrate up to find the dose that works best for you.
You could also start DIM at the same time. It doesn't act as an AI but it improves estrogen metabolism. Basically, it doesn't reduce them but avoids a little bit the rise and accumulation.
And some also use HCG to improve their testosterone production signal and natural production. Which is less hard than enclomiphene or any SERMS.
From my point of view, without a negative judgment, I mostly see a young man who has a functional body but who may not have come out of his midly depression yet. Or who lacks joy in his life maybe (and who training no longer brings as it used to).
For me, there is nothing hormonal in all this. It's "in your head". I know it's sucks... But it's something that we notice a lot these days, you're not the only one.
And you're looking for an external solution. It's normal and it's good to try to be happy. But the use of drugs will only be a placebo band-aid that will not last over time.
It will surely work more in a motivation because "you take something" than on the body which already feels good.
That's not the subject of your post I know that.
But to answer it anyway, always start low when it comes to drugs. Do a blood test before titrate up to find the dose that works best for you.
You could also start DIM at the same time. It doesn't act as an AI but it improves estrogen metabolism. Basically, it doesn't reduce them but avoids a little bit the rise and accumulation.
And some also use HCG to improve their testosterone production signal and natural production. Which is less hard than enclomiphene or any SERMS.
- Thread Author
- #7
I understand you answer. And I think for some people maybe it is the answer. But you don’t understand how much I love this sport and how much it gave me in life. I was fat and unhealthy years ago. And that I can’t perform like I used to do is not nice.Hello
From my point of view, without a negative judgment, I mostly see a young man who has a functional body but who may not have come out of his midly depression yet. Or who lacks joy in his life maybe (and who training no longer brings as it used to).
For me, there is nothing hormonal in all this. It's "in your head". I know it's sucks... But it's something that we notice a lot these days, you're not the only one.
And you're looking for an external solution. It's normal and it's good to try to be happy. But the use of drugs will only be a placebo band-aid that will not last over time.
It will surely work more in a motivation because "you take something" than on the body which already feels good.
That's not the subject of your post I know that.
But to answer it anyway, always start low when it comes to drugs. Do a blood test before titrate up to find the dose that works best for you.
You could also start DIM at the same time. It doesn't act as an AI but it improves estrogen metabolism. Basically, it doesn't reduce them but avoids a little bit the rise and accumulation.
And some also use HCG to improve their testosterone production signal and natural production. Which is less hard than enclomiphene or any SERMS.
If it would be an depression, then you would claim my health metrics are lying. I have a lot of detailed health metrics from the last year and you can clearly see there was a big impact on my body.
I’m recovering and I’m feeling a lot better, but not like before.
Sure you don’t know me, but I’m mentally extremely strong and I try always to push through. My mind wants to push like always but my body just can’t. That’s the problem.
Anyways, thanks for your answer.
Have you been dieting very hard along with lots of training? Are you sure that the yawning was due to high cortisol? Asking because I had some similarities (overly strict diets, lots of training and constant deadly exhaustion), and mine was very low. If you were forcing a lot of fat loss on your body, it may be so depleted that you may really need a long, real rest. Restrictive dieting, tons of training plus the other stresses in life will cause your body to conserve energy and push the brakes to the floor. It makes you exhausted in order to save energy, and after a while the only thing you can do is to really recover, and that takes a very long time. After I started working from home, I was so deeply exhausted that I barely had the strength to go to the grocery store and visit my Mum for two years. Then I spent two more years getting very slowly better, and I started missing training, then returned after a four-years-long break. I still don't have proper energy, and of course I ended up much heavier than before, but I feel much better and more capable now, after focusing on rest for such a long time. There are some things you can't just outwork by constantly pushing yourself. There is a thread here about CNS recovery, maybe check it out but I think you are already doing a lot in that area.
And some therapy is always very useful even if you are mentally healthy. It may help you reinforce the balance between working hard and taking care of yourself, it can help prioritize happiness, which you would really deserve.
I see it also in your other post that you are dedicated and work not only hard but also smart, I wish you success, but just be aware that it may come more slowly and require more patience.
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